[Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
John C. Montgomery
monkeyltd at comcast.net
Sat Oct 16 08:58:19 CDT 2010
I suppose that I want to simply make a distinction between saying that G-d is mysterious - or G-d is the mystery, and more properly, G-d is a mysterious power, although that could use some unpacking as well.
I thought it was HRN who suggested that we need to be careful about saying that G-d is love, which then leads to the statement that love is G-d. No, G-d loves the world...
Shropshire, probably stolen from Marshall wanted us to draw distinctions so that we didn't end up saying that the mysteriousness of God is analogous to his lost sox. That mystery might in time be solved.
Mystery is not G-d, but G-d is a mysterious power.
Later,
John
John C. Montgomery
----- Original Message -----
From: jlepps at pc.jaring.my
To: "Order Ecumenical Community" <oe at wedgeblade.net>
Sent: Sunday, October 17, 2010 8:59:46 AM
Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On God
Apologies for my flippant excursion into Greek.
The question that I think needs to be addressed
is one that has plagued me since Seminary: "What
is the on-going-not-me-ness that we point to with
the word G-O-D?" It has seemed to me that Jesus'
relation to that One was filial, however he expressed it.
My current answer to that question is that the
word G-O-D points to the mysterious power that
confronts me daily with the unexpected. I once
wrote a whole "Theology of Surprise" in which the
experience of God happens every time we are
surprised. In fact, encounter with mystery is
what constitutes surprise. And that mystery, we
have the option of regarding as Father (or Mother) or as enemy.
Theology has not kept up with physics, and the
current Super-string Theory seems to leave plenty
of room for mysterious power. But theology's
relation to physics is mainly to keep from
espousing absurdities, not to define our terms for us.
Anyway, thanks for thoughtful comments. More later.
John Epps
At 08:48 AM 10/15/2010, you wrote:
>Yes, John, my Greek is pretty bad, but I think
>that's right, which all goes to prove that
>translations between languages is not as clear
>as we are sometimes led to believe. My
>wondering is did Jesus or the NT writers choose
>to use this particular word for G-O-D as a
>departure from the normal words, or was this
>usual. Was this part of their critics claiming
>they were godless, and did the repeated
>references to G-O-D being located within or
>among people rather than the sky god we have
>today a variance from the uses of their
>time. Are we left simply with Outler's option
>at this point? George Holcombe 14900 Yellowleaf
>Tr. Austin, TX 78728 Home: 512/252-2756 Mobile
>512/294-5952 geowanda at earthlink.net ‎"The
>future belongs to those who give the next
>generation reason for hope." -Teilhard de
>Chardin On Oct 14, 2010, at 9:54 PM, JOHN L.
>EPPS wrote: > As I remember, George, "within" is
>the same greek word as "among." > John E > >
>Quoting George Holcombe
><geowanda at earthlink.net>: > >> Another add-on to
>the string, I certainly agree with the remarks
>here >> but have a further wonder - >> >> In
>reading Klotz's book, Prayers of the Cosmos, (p.
>12) (recommended by >> Matthew Fox, for Fox
>fans) he works on the aramaic phrase "Abwoon >>
>d'bwashmaya" translated into English as "Our
>Father which art in >> Heaven," which may not
>have much in common with our
>translation. Like >> most translations from
>language to language, some of it doesn't. >>
>"Abwoon," the word put in Jesus' mouth by the
>writers of the New >> Testament, doesn't
>translate directly into the Greek "Abba," which
>we >> have been taught to translate as "Father,"
>though, since it was a >> familial and not a
>formal term could better be translated as
>"Daddy," >> but the Aramaic is two root words -
>"Ab" which is gender neutral (and >> some
>Aramaic scholars point out it may refer to a
>female deity of the >> past) and "woon" which
>seems to mean in Aramaic something like the >>
>abyss from which all things come. So maybe
>"mystery" is not such a bad >> translation of
>G-O-D or "Father" in our Bibles. And since
>Aramaic, >> like many middle Eastern languages
>is more contextual than literal, >> tonal
>inflection and situation, can vary the
>meaning. When I went to >> seminary, New
>Testament Greek was as far as we reached back,
>and "Abba" >> was the in-word, so it's not to
>hard to see how our theology got strung >> out
>from there. The seeming fact that Jesus used
>"Abwoon" rather than >> the other popular terms
>for God in the Aramaic of his day, leaves us >>
>with another interesting conundrum, why that
>word and not the "normal" >> or "popular" ones
>like El, Illah or the unpronounceable ones,
>etc. >> >> The other interesting note is why did
>Jesus (writers of the N.T.) talk >> again and
>again of G-O-D being within rather than the
>God-in-the-Sky? >> >> Our Western Theological
>traditions may have some work to do yet. As
>my >> old professor Albert Outler used to say,
>"You pays your money and you >> takes "yer"
>choice." But he would go on from there and say
>quietly >> "and that "ain't" the end of the
>story. (BTW, he's the prof. that used >> to bug
>JWM to finish his doctrate.) >> >> Having
>ventured more into interfaith conversations the
>past few years, >> I'm wondering if we are not
>already in that secular-religious >> "religion"
>that we talked about, and what does that mean
>for us today. >> >> >> George Holcombe >> 14900
>Yellowleaf Tr. >> Austin, TX 78728 >> Home:
>512/252-2756 >> Mobile 512/294-5952 >>
>geowanda at earthlink.net >> >> ‎"The future
>belongs to those who give the next generation
>reason for >> hope." -Teilhard de Chardin >> >>
>On Oct 13, 2010, at 8:08 PM, James Wiegel
>wrote: >> >>> Desmond Avery's book, Beyond
>Power: Simone Weil and the Notion of >>
>Authority, would be a great study book -- I read
>it this summer (and >> had chance, celebrating
>their 40th Anniversary for extended >>
>conversations with the author). As humans, we
>don't ever start from >> scratch and never come
>near thinking things through all the way. We >>
>rely on all kinds of "authorities", kind of
>assuming they are right >> (which includes the
>authority of our own experience). >>> >>> "In
>every area of life, from personal well-being to
>international >> decision-making, the need for a
>better understanding of whom to obey, >> ignore,
>or oppose is conspicuous. The writings of
>Simone Weil, whether >> admired for their
>brilliance or deplored for their shortcomings,
>offer >> a unique opportunity to construct such
>an understanding." >>> >>> >>> Jim >>> >>> The
>pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist
>expects it to >> change; the realist adjusts the
>sails. William Arthur Ward. >>> >>> Jim
>Wiegel >>> 401 North Beverly Way, Tolleson,
>Arizona 85353-2401 >>> +1 623-936-8671 +1
>623-363-3277 >>> jfwiegel at yahoo.com
>www.partnersinparticipation.com >>> >>> --- On
>Wed, 10/13/10, Susan Fertig <susan at gmdtech.com>
>wrote: >>> >>> From: Susan Fertig
><susan at gmdtech.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Oe List
>...] Salmon: On God >>> To: "'Order Ecumenical
>Community'" <oe at wedgeblade.net> >>> Date:
>Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 5:43 PM >>> >>> You
>said, “Where was God …â€� and then posited
>that He was in >> those moments in the
>manifestation of love. >>> >>> Life is the
>refiner’s fire. I believe He doesn’t bring
>or give >> us trouble, but He allows it. And it
>is in those moments of greatest >> pain, or
>struggle, that the greatest intimacy with Him is
>possible. >>> >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> From:
>oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On >> Behalf
>Of William Salmon >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 12,
>2010 12:05 AM >>> To: Order Ecumenical
>Community >>> Subject: [Oe List ...] Salmon: On
>God >>> >>> >>> Colleagues All-- >>> >>> One
>20th and 21st Century danger is that of claiming
>a God that >> is too small. One of the blessings
>of the Order's proclamation of God >> as Mystery
>is that it forced us to acknowledge that which
>we are not. >> In order to embrace such a
>definition it was necessary to suspend our >>
>dis-belief. At least this definition does not
>fall off on moralism or >> pietism. It does
>become distorted by a false
>objectification. >>> >>> I've never been
>comfortable with a God as Mystery, although I
>can >> theologically justify such a God; there
>is too much that we can not >>
>understand. >>> >>> However, the
>objectification of all our old Christian Code
>Words >> is THE PROBLEM given to us in our
>Modern Worldview created at the great >>
>paradigm TURN during the 15th and 16th Century.
>The invention of the >> Scientific Method, the
>Renaissance, the Reformation, and >>
>Industrial/Urbanization birthed such an
>objectification yet still >> framed it in
>metaphysical analysis; for his time, Pipa is
>correct in >> his Passes: "God's in His (sic)
>heaven and all's right with the
>world." >>> >>> The problem is clearly
>manifested at the Great paradigm TURN >>
>initiated by Einstein's physics. There ain't no
>Heaven and there's not >> a God to reside there!
>There never was and there never will be.The >>
>reason is this kind of God just
>ain't! >>> >>> Isn't this the message of
>Jesus? Are you looking for the Lone >> Ranger?
>There isn't any, and I'm He! The one who comes
>to tell us that >> an objective God does not
>exist actually is the God we seek. Such >>
>information is more than the Truth, actually it
>is the experience of >> GOODNESS. >>> >>> God
>is not an object that lives beyond the sky.Our
>faith-story is >> that God is EXPERIENCED as
>Love. We need to remember that Love comes to >>
>us as forgiveness, acceptance, passion, in
>familial, and as Tough Love >> ("Order Member,
>get your ass out of bed and into Daily
>Office!" >> Remember?) >>> >>> This
>experience is no Mystery. It is as intimate as
>it is >> universal. We experience it in every
>aspect of creation from birth, >> driven through
>pain and joy, and then in death. Love comes to
>us at >> every turn. >>> >>> Those who are
>awake to this GOOD NEWS understand the formula
>ALL >> IS GOOD, THE PRESENT IS RECEIVED AS A
>GIFT, THE PAST NOT ONLY IS >> FORGIVEN IT IS
>FORGOTTEN, AND THE FUTURE IS OPEN! >>> >>> It
>is the work of the Awakened to demonstrate this
>TRUTH that the >> truth we seek actually is
>GOODNESS. The way in which we embrace this >>
>reality is to take the Leap of Faith; that is,
>to surrender by falling >> into the care of such
>Good News and ask others to come leap with
>us. >>> >>> To die to our illusions of what
>Truth actually is becomes the >> profound
>experience of resurrection into blessed
>assurance. >>> >>> The movie, "Joe Vs. the
>Volcano" (Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan) tell >> this
>story is Spades, and Joe and Patricia actually
>make the sacrifice >> of jumping into a volcano
>for a group of people (a part of the Lost >>
>Tribes of Israel!) who are to chicken to do
>their own sacrifice. Why >> does Joe do this? He
>does it because he wants to, "Live like a king
>and >> die like a man." The result is that the
>movie ends by "taking us away >> from the things
>of man;" i.e., our illusions about the
>objectification >> of our old Christian
>Lexicon. >>> >>> Because they make this leap,
>a WONDER occurs. (Observe this is >> not a
>MIRACLE. What happens is the result of Love, and
>that is not the >> TRUTH, but it is a
>GOODNESS.) >>> >>> >>> Post-modern theology
>never asks the question, "What do we KNOW >>
>about God, Christ, HS, the Human Situation, Sin,
>Grace, etc." The >> question always is, "How do
>we EXPERIENCE these things." >>> >>> Until
>this little exercise becomes second nature, all
>of us will >> continue to attempt to define the
>indefinable simply because it is not >>
>definable. It is experienced as close as our
>breath and our empathy and >> our sympathy. It
>is as close as living the surrendered life as
>a >> servant to our spouses, partners, friends
>and colleagues. >>> >>> Now, Mother Nature is
>something else. Mom N is the culprit for >> much
>of what we blame God. Why did our son Wesley die
>at 20 years old >> with leukemia? Is God
>punishing him, or his parents. Not on your
>sweet >> bippy! Leukemia and childhood death is
>just The Way Life Is (TWLI). >> Yep, Mom Nature
>guarantees that leukemia and cancer, and crib
>death all >> have their place in the universe.
>She also is responsible for the depth >> of
>degradation that we selfish--read
>Un-Awakened--ass holes are capable >> of doing
>to beat up on those who don't UNDERSTAND GOD
>just like we do; >> how else can you explain
>9/11? >>> >>> Where was Love when 200 people
>jumped 110 stories? Or where was >> Love when
>the plane on the way into the Pennsylvanian
>earth when >> someone on board yelled, "Let's
>roll!" >>> >>> Easy. Love was on board, and
>with the jumpers all the way into >> the ground.
>Then Love was in the rebirth of patriotism, and
>generosity, >> and actual care for those who
>hurt. >>> >>> >>> Well, like always, I've said
>too much, much too badly. >>> >>> Maybe this
>will stir your juices to begin to think in the
>methods >> of our Post-Modern worldview. Care to
>dialogue? >>> >>> Inner Peace, >>> >>> Bill
>Salmon >>> >>> ----- Original Message
>----- >>> >>> From: Susan Fertig >>> >>> To:
>'Order Ecumenical Community' >>> >>> Sent:
>Monday, October 11, 2010 6:54 PM >>> >>>
>Subject: Re: [Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of
>last 20 years >>> >>> >>> I backslid into
>believing in the Trinity, and a God in
>control. >>> >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> From:
>oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On >> Behalf
>Of David Walters >>> Sent: Friday, October 08,
>2010 8:44 PM >>> To: Order Ecumenical
>Community >>> Subject: Re: [Oe List ...]
>Pedagogue list of last 20 years >>> >>> >>> What
>happened between you and Kazantzakis? Have you
>departed from the >> Crimson Line? >>> >>> >>>
>David Walters >>> >>> ----- Original Message
>----- >>> >>> From: Susan Fertig >>> >>> To:
>'Order Ecumenical Community' ;
>dialogue at wedgeblade.net >>> >>> Sent: Friday,
>October 08, 2010 3:30 PM >>> >>> Subject: Re:
>[Oe List ...] Pedagogue list of last 20
>years >>> >>> >>> Pedagogues: >>> >>> Don Clark
>(72-76, Venezuela courses and Houston Rel.
>Hse.) >>> >>> Christina Clark (Houston
>period) >>> >>> Sherwood Shankland (ongoing,
>beginning in the 70s) >>> >>> Bruce and Marcie
>Bunker (Venezuela, Caracas Rel. Hse.) >>> >>>
>Rafael Davila >>> >>> Steve Allen (courses in
>Venezuela) >>> >>> George and Wanda
>Holcombe >>> >>> George West >>> >>> And many
>others >>> >>> Guides: >>> >>> Herman Hesse
>(Journey to the East) >>> >>> Teilhard de
>Chardin >>> >>> Kazantzakis (at one time, not
>any longer) >>> >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> >>> From:
>oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net
>[mailto:oe-bounces at wedgeblade.net] On >> Behalf
>Of LAURELCG at aol.com >>> Sent: Friday, October
>08, 2010 1:00 PM >>> To: Oe at wedgeblade.net;
>dialogue at wedgeblade.net >>> Subject: [Oe List
>...] Pedagogue list of last 20 years >>> >>> >>>
>I wanted to bring back this list. Hope my
>editing attempt didn't >> delete anything vital
>to its meaning. Here's mine. >>> >>> I have to
>go back a little further to the 80's when the 12
>Steps of >> A.A. saved me and my family. >>> >>>
>Matthew Fox led me to the Four Paths of Creation
>Spirituality: >> Positiva, Negativa, Creativa,
>Transformativa. >>> >>> Starhawk on Feminist
>Thealogy, took me beyond the church's stance
>of >> female as less than fully human >>> >>>
>Rosalyn Bruyere on energy healing >>> >>> Thomas
>Berry and Bryan Swimme on the Universe Story and
>our moment in >> it >>> >>> Ann LaMott on
>writing and the importance of humor >>> >>>
>Barbara Kingsolver - myriad gifts >>> >>> Barack
>Obama - all is possible >>> >>> Richard Bartlett
>- importance of hallucinating the possible -
>it's >> all possible >>> >>> >>> Thanks for
>asking. >>> >>> Blessings, dear
>colleagues, >>> >>> Jann McGuire >>> >>> >>>
>This is interesting, perhaps add, what image did
>they help puncture >> or shape? >>> Robert Bly
>-- gave me back poetry >>> Nikos Kazantzakis --
>I keep coming back to Saviors of God --
>reminds >> me of the awesome journey >>> Rianne
>Eisler -- living in a post patriarchal time . .
>. >>> Vaclav Havel -- meaning can shape
>political realities >>> >>> >>> --- On Wed,
>9/29/10, R Williams <rcwmbw at yahoo.com>
>wrote: >>> From: R Williams
><rcwmbw at yahoo.com> >>> Subject: Re: [Oe List
>...] New Pedagogy and New Pedagogues >>> To:
>"Order Ecumenical Community"
><oe at wedgeblade.net> >>> Date: Wednesday,
>Septem >>> >>> Parker Palmer >>> >>> Peter
>Senge >>> >>> Margaret Wheatley >>> >>> Willis
>Harman >>> >>> Rachel Naomi Remen >>> >>> Robert
>Greenleaf >>> >>> Peter Block >>> >>> --- On
>Wed, 9/29/10, PSchrijnen at aol.com
><PSchrijnen at aol.com> wrote >>> >>> David
>Whyte >>> >>> Richard McDonald >>> >>> Robert
>Bly >>> >>> Rowan Williams >>> >>> Thich Nhat
>Hanh >>> >>> >>>> START CLOSE IN >>>> >>>> Start
>close in, >>>> don't take the second step >>>>
>or the third, >>>> start with the first >>>>
>thing >>>> close in, >>>> the step you don't
>want to take. >>>> >>>> Start with >>>> the
>ground >>>> you know, >>>> the pale ground >>>>
>beneath your feet, >>>> your own >>>> way of
>starting >>>> the conversation. >>>> >>>> Start
>with your own >>>> question, >>>> give up on
>other >>>> people's questions, >>>> don't let
>them >>>> smother something >>>>
>simple. >>>> >>>> To find >>>> another's
>voice >>>> follow >>>> your own voice, >>>> >>>>
>wait until >>>> that voice >>>> becomes a >>>>
>private ear >>>> listening >>>> to
>another. >>>> >>>> Start right now >>>> take a
>small step >>>> you can call your own >>>> don't
>follow >>>> someone else's >>>> heroics, be
>humble >>>> and focused, >>>> start close
>in, >>>> don't mistake >>>> that other >>>> for
>your own. >>>> >>>> Start close in, >>>> don't
>take the second step >>>> or the third, >>>>
>start with the first >>>> thing >>>> close
>in, >>>> the step you don't want to
>take. >>>> >>>> >>>> ~ David
>Whyte >>>> >>>> >>>> People who are aware of
>this process and consciously cooperating >>
>with >>>> it are developing what David Whyte
>calls "True Presence" and a >>>> "Conversational
>Identity". If you haven't gotten his Live in
>San >>>> Francisco DVD, you and Burna would just
>love it! I think I ordered >> it >>>> for $15
>on his website DavidWhyte. com >>> >>> >>>
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